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Is this true for [non-Apple] cards or only for banks that enable it? I am unable to find this number on my cards, all of which are from Chase. I'm using iOS 12.4.1.
This is a feature of the Apple Card, visible only in the Apple Wallet under 'Card Info'. Dunno what banks other than Goldman Sachs would have to do.

The most detailed description I've seen of these Apple Card features is from last March at its announcement: How Apple Card Works (TechCrunch.com)
 


In all the discussion about the "Apple Card" I haven't read one thing about the issuing bank - Goldman Sachs. What a short memory we have. I'm disappointed that Apple chose Goldman Sachs. The guilty depend, like other banks that have been caught out (Wells Fargo, for example), on people's inability to learn from past behavior.
 


DFG

One related surprise: I'd posted a "real" card to Consumer Reports online. The card expired, and I'd decided not to renew. Somehow CR managed to bill and collect the renewal without the new card's dates....
Yep. That's the banks being complicit in an (almost) fraud. They will helpfully give creditors your new credit card info without your consent.
 


DFG

I just tried generating a virtual account number for my Citi Double Cash Back card via the stated link, and the process required Flash. Drat.
It may require Flash, but it works well. I really appreciate being able to do that.

I will also note that not all Citi credit cards have this feature. Of my three Citi cards, only the Double Cash Back lets me do this.
 


I recently switched alarm monitoring companies. My old company was being recalcitrant in closing my account (emails, voice mails, certified letter, etc.), so I called the bank (Citi) that issued the credit card that was being used for the monthly auto-debit. They told me that the security company was allowed to auto-debit my card as I had given them permission to do so. To my surprise, they refused to let me delete that permission. So, every month for the last two months, when the auto-debit for the old alarm monitoring company comes in, I have disputed the charge and had it reversed in my favor. I suppose one of us three will eventually become tired of doing this and will update their records. It won't be me.
Many years ago I was talking to a bank employee, and she told me of the problems with auto-switching of recurring charges to new cards and of significant problems that occur when companies accidentally over-bill checking accounts where automatic withdrawals are allowed. Consequently, I have never used these services.
 


Yep. That's the banks being complicit in an (almost) fraud. They will helpfully give creditors your new credit card info without your consent.
I generally agree with that characterization, however, whether it's a bug or a feature can depend on the situation. If banks proactively change your credit card number because they expect fraud might happen, it can be a nuisance to go change card numbers you had been using for recurring charges.
 


I just tried generating a virtual account number for my Citi Double Cash Back card via the stated link, and the process required Flash. Drat.
Yes, asking for a virtual account number through Citibank requires Adobe Flash, the only reason I use Flash — just to show a little credit card with rolling numbers. Geesh! Can Citibank just pop up a number that I am going to copy and paste somewhere else?
 


Many years ago I was talking to a bank employee, and she told me of the problems with auto-switching of recurring charges to new cards and of significant problems that occur when companies accidentally over-bill checking accounts where automatic withdrawals are allowed. Consequently, I have never used these services.
I suggest you file a complaint with your state attorney general. They will do an investigation and, if they can, which is not always, will have Citi make an exception on your behalf.
 


I recently switched alarm monitoring companies. My old company was being recalcitrant in closing my account (emails, voice mails, certified letter, etc.), so I called the bank (Citi) that issued the credit card that was being used for the monthly auto-debit. They told me that the security company was allowed to auto-debit my card as I had given them permission to do so. To my surprise, they refused to let me delete that permission. So, every month for the last two months, when the auto-debit for the old alarm monitoring company comes in, I have disputed the charge and had it reversed in my favor. I suppose one of us three will eventually become tired of doing this and will update their records. It won't be me.
And amazingly enough, Citibank will re-route to a new credit card number when you change the credit card number. However, if you just place your credit card on file to pay at the end of the month, but don't fill an auto-debit form, it is treated very differently.
 


And amazingly enough, Citibank will re-route to a new credit card number when you change the credit card number. However, if you just place your credit card on file to pay at the end of the month, but don't fill an auto-debit form, it is treated very differently.
Are you talking about the difference between automatic withdrawl from a bank account (as some insurance companies do) and keeping a credit (or debit) card number on file for purchases and payments? Or are there two distinct ways of setting up credit card payments?
 


I'm no fan of Goldman Sachs or the investment banking industry in general. However, the scale, reach, and access to capital required of the issuer of the Apple Card means that Apple's choice of companies was limited. Pretty much every card issuer capable of handling the Apple Card is going to have something in its current operations or history that financial services skeptics will disagree with.

In any case, there are plenty of credit card and banking options, plus the cardholder benefits of the Apple Card aren't that great... so I don't think anybody is missing out on much by avoiding the Apple Card. Not to mention, the "you're not carrying it in your pocket right" problem just adds to the disadvantages of the Apple Card.
 


access to capital required of the issuer of the Apple Card means that Apple's choice of companies was limited.
When I just checked, the market cap of Goldman Sachs was $77.52 billion (9/11/19, 12:18 PM CDT). Apple? $1.007 trillion.

That $.007 trillion and some "spare change" under the cushions of those round couches in Cupertino would buy Goldman Sachs.
 


I don't want to get into the accounting and finance weeds here (we're really here to talk about Apple tech stuff, right?), but, briefly, market capitalization does not have a strong relationship to funds available for expenditure. Market cap is a measure of the price that traders will pay other traders for a public company's shares. It isn't a particularly useful tool for predicting how much a company would receive for newly issued shares.

Now let's think strategically. Even if Apple did want to use some of its cash hoard to start or acquire a bank, it would face crippling antitrust scrutiny. WalMart has faced similar challenges over the last few decades. Further, Apple most likely has no desire to enter any industry or sector that is subject to the level of international, federal, state, and local government regulation and oversight financial services companies face.

In many ways, Marcus Bank probably is the best choice for Apple and Apple Card holders. It's a new, FDIC-affiliated bank with good access to capital and talent. It's hungry for new customers and has a huge incentive to treat Apple Card customers well. An AMEX or Citibank probably would operate the Apple Card as just another co-branded card in their massive offerings.
 


I don't want to get into the accounting and finance weeds here (we're really here to talk about Apple tech stuff, right?)
Hey, Ryan, I wasn't suggesting Apple should buy Goldman-Sachs, I was just trying to add some humourous insight into the Apple <-> Goldman Sachs relationship.
Even if Apple did want to use some of its cash hoard to start or acquire a bank, it would face crippling antitrust scrutiny. WalMart has faced similar challenges over the last few decades.
Sam Walton's wife came from an Oklahoma banking / ranching family. Where Walmart itself has been blocked from starting banks for several reasons, the family remains in the banking business. Any number of current and past executives of Apple have plenty of personal funds to start or buy a bank, hedge fund, or insurance company, if they wanted. Would be a conflict of interest, were Apple to do business with such companies...
Now let's think strategically.
We've no idea what "deal" Apple and Goldman have with each other. Given the low rate of interest paid to investors, and the high rates of interest charged on cards, card lending has the potential to be very lucrative, more so if a card issuer has only very high quality cardholders, as I'd presume folks with track records paying for iPhones and expensive cell service are.

Apple, with its enormous mountain of cash and cash equivalents may have a deal with Goldman based on Apple financing Apple card costs through placement of Apple investments. If so, that may show up in Apple / Goldman financial statements.

But interest is just part of how issuers make money from credit cards.
Merchant Maverick said:
What Are Interchange Fees For Credit Card Processing
Now, you might think that the card-issuing banks make most of their money from collecting late payment fees and charging interest to consumers who have let their credit card debt pile up over time. Although this is certainly a lucrative source of income (and consumer credit card debt is a huge national problem), the fact is that interchange fees account for most of a bank’s profits when their credit cards are used, even when the cards are used by responsible consumers who pay their full credit card balance on time, every month. . . .
 


When I just checked, the market cap of Goldman Sachs was $77.52 billion (9/11/19, 12:18 PM CDT). Apple? $1.007 trillion.

That $.007 trillion and some "spare change" under the cushions of those round couches in Cupertino would buy Goldman Sachs.
Ummm...Isn't this calculation off by a factor of 10? Sorry, I'm a recovering bean counter. ;)
 


Ummm...Isn't this calculation off by a factor of 10? Sorry, I'm a recovering bean counter. ;)
Faced with so many eye-glazing zeroes and commas, I turned to a billions to trilions calculator I found on the ever-trustworthy internet. And may then have missed a digit.

Market caps Sept 12 2019 at approx 1:36 PM CDT
Apple $1.017 Trillion
Goldman-Sachs $78.78 Billion
Carefully using nine zeroes for a billion and twelve for a trillion, I do this math. Further apolgies for the numerical alignment, I tried to use the table feature on the site, but didn't get it to work

Apple $1,017,000,000,000
Goldman 78,780,000,000
AAPL - GS $ 938,220,000,000

Which, I think, confirms Jeff's correction of my earlier post. Apple wouldn't be able to buy Goldman for the .007 Trillion and loose change in Cupertino's round couches, as I suggested yesterday. They might have to throw in the couches with the change.
 


My biggest issue with the Apple Card is that you can not download transactions to enter in your accounting software (e.g. Mactivity or Quicken).
 


When I just checked, the market cap of Goldman Sachs was $77.52 billion (9/11/19, 12:18 PM CDT). Apple? $1.007 trillion. That $.007 trillion and some "spare change" under the cushions of those round couches in Cupertino would buy Goldman Sachs.
Bad math: $78 billion is $0.078 trillion, about 8%!
 


Does anybody else feel the Apple card is inconveniently heavy? Most credits cards weigh around 5 g. The Amazon Prime Card is more than 12 g,, only to be topped by the Apple card at almost 15 g! These latter two cards are so heavy, they slip out of my wallet. Friction is not enough to hold them in. Also, the metallic sound when dropping it on the table is not exactly pleasing. What exactly is the point of using titanium?
 



These latter two cards are so heavy, they slip out of my wallet. Friction is not enough to hold them in. Also, the metallic sound when dropping it on the table is not exactly pleasing. What exactly is the point of using titanium?
Likely designed to do precisely that - causing heads to turn. Free advertising for them, provided by (an unwilling) you.
 


Does anybody else feel the Apple card is inconveniently heavy? Most credits cards weigh around 5 g. The Amazon Prime Card is more than 12 g,, only to be topped by the Apple card at almost 15 g! These latter two cards are so heavy, they slip out of my wallet. Friction is not enough to hold them in. Also, the metallic sound when dropping it on the table is not exactly pleasing. What exactly is the point of using titanium?
This is generation 1 of the Apple Card. Future releases will be thinner and thinner until it is a sliver of titanium foil.
 




Ric Ford

MacInTouch
FYI:
Malcolm Owen said:
Apple Card users having problems with making payments
A number of Apple Card customers are having problems managing their credit card, with reports of users struggling to make payments to the credit facility through the Wallet app, with the distinct possibility of some users accidentally making multiple payments against their account balance.

... Users affected by the issue are finding they are waiting for considerable lengths of time before being able to get in contact with a Goldman Sachs representative of the service via Apple Business Chat or over the phone. So far affected customers are being informed of the existence of an "issue with their available credit or balance displayed within Wallet," and that it would be resolved shortly.
#applequality
 


Some data about the scale and financial resources required for the Apple Card have been released. From the launch in late August to September 30 (a little over a month!), $10 billion in credit lines was issued. Within those credit lines, $736 million is loan balances.

For context, a credit union with a national footprint, PedFed, has $25 billion in assets and 1.8 million customers.
 


My biggest issue with Apple Card is that I cannot set up payments in my online banking app... you can only make payments via a bank account attached to your Apple Wallet, which scares me.
 


RonL, actually you can make payments from your bank without the Apple Card pulling the payment from the bank. The Apple Card statement has the mailing address, and while it doesn't say you can make payments to that address, it does work. Just be certain to include your Apple Card account number along with the statement address when you set up payments with your bank.

Our first payment from the bank took 11 days to appear, but the next month's payment took about a day. I suspect the first payment was a paper check from the bank, and once that worked, they switched it to an electronic payment method.
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
Currently in the news:
Reuters said:
Goldman faces probe after entrepreneur slams Apple Card algorithm in tweets
... The Department of Financial Services “will be conducting an investigation to determine whether New York law was violated and ensure all consumers are treated equally regardless of sex,” a department spokeswoman told Reuters in a statement.

“Any algorithm that intentionally or not results in discriminatory treatment of women or any other protected class violates New York law.”
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
And Woz points out the critical issues being overlooked:
Bloomberg said:
Apple Co-Founder Says Goldman’s Apple Card Algo Discriminates
... Now another high-profile user of the Apple Card -- Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak -- is calling for the government to get involved, citing excessive corporate reliance on mysterious technology.

“These sorts of unfairnesses bother me and go against the principle of truth. We don’t have transparency on how these companies set these things up and operate,” Wozniak said in an interview on Sunday. “Our government isn’t strong enough on the issues of regulation. Consumers can only be represented by the government because the big corporations only represent themselves.”

Wozniak said he can borrow 10 times as much as his wife on their Apple Cards even though they share bank and other credit card accounts, and that other lenders treat them equally.

“Algos obviously have flaws,” Wozniak said. “A huge number of people would say, ‘We love our technology but we are no longer in control.’ I think that’s the case.”
 


Currently in the news:
...
And Woz points out the critical issues being overlooked:
... Now another high-profile user of the Apple Card -- Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak -- is calling for the government to get involved, citing excessive corporate reliance on mysterious technology....​
We will need to see what the results are of the investigation. There may be factors that haven't been reported. For instance, even though you don't provide income data on the application, that doesn't mean that the bank isn't going to get those numbers from other sources. And there could simply be a bug in the code. "Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity."
 


Lender bias is a long-standing problem in the US, so I think it's good this inequity has been exposed. I'm especially interested in seeing how Apple and Marcus Bank respond. Will they make excuses or focus on remedies? Or remain silent, as they have been since the story broke? Apple's culture of secrecy will not serve them well here, especially if Apple user data is involved.
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
We will need to see what the results are of the investigation. There may be factors that haven't been reported. For instance, even though you don't provide income data on the application, that doesn't mean that the bank isn't going to get those numbers from other sources. And there could simply be a bug in the code. "Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity."
While there may be a "bug in the code", there are enormous issues signified in this small example that are independent of any coding bugs, as expressed by Woz. In fact, the issue of "black boxes" is rapidly becoming an existential issue, as A.I. becomes ever more pervasive and powerful, growing far beyond the ability of any individual or team to understand or control it.

I vividly remember, decades ago, the rare privilige of being invited to lunch with the brilliant creator of a critical proprietary system at a giant computer company and learning to my astonishment that he, its inventor, could no longer understand completely how it worked - it had grown too complex. And that system was far simpler than ordinary personal computer systems of today, which are orders of magnitude simpler than the computer systems of corporations such as Apple, Google, and Facebook, which are infinitely simpler and more controllable than future A.I. technologies developing on top of trillions and trillions of very personal data records being constantly collected today.

The danger, of course, as science fiction tried to teach us years ago, is that these "black boxes" can (and will) produce unpredictable, "malicious", and deadly actions through their "stupidity." Here's a recent example:
NTSB said:
Automated Test Vehicle Subject of Board Meeting
... A 49-year-old woman died when the test vehicle struck her as she was walking a bicycle midblock across Mill Avenue in Tempe, Arizona, on March 18, 2018. The test vehicle, a 2017 Volvo XC90 sport utility vehicle modified with an Uber Advanced Technologies Group developmental automated driving system, was occupied by one operator who was not injured in the crash. The vehicle was controlled by the Uber Advanced Technologies Group developmental automated driving system as it encountered the pedestrian.
Previously released information about the NTSB’s investigation of the crash is available online at https://go.usa.gov/xVHXh.
Here's another:
NBC said:
Tesla Sued by Family of Apple Engineer Who Died in Model X Autopilot Crash in Silicon Valley
... Lawyers for the family of 38-year-old Walter Huang told reporters at a press conference Wednesday that Huang was on his way to drop off his children at school on March 23, 2018 when he died from injuries he suffered when the Autopilot of his 2017 Tesla Model X drove his SUV into the unprotected edge of a concrete highway median that was missing its crash guard.
“We want to ensure the technology behind semi-autonomous cars is safe before it is released on the roads, and its risks are not withheld or misrepresented to the public," the family's attorneys said.
#AI #complexity #blackboxes
 



Ric Ford

MacInTouch
We will need to see what the results are of the investigation....
Here's an update (see the included link):
CNBC said:
Regulator probing Goldman over Apple Card: Gender bias must be rooted out of process
Companies that deploy biased algorithms — even unknowingly — are still responsible for potential discriminatory outcomes, the Wall Street regulator who is probing Goldman Sachs' Apple Card told CNBC on Monday.

"Algorithms don't get immunity from discrimination," said Linda Lacewell, superintendent of New York's Department of Financial Services, which is investigating claims that Goldman Sachs' Apple Card discriminated against women when determining credit limits.

... In a statement released Sunday, Goldman said it does not consider gender in credit decisions and evaluates all applications independently. Goldman also said it looking into ways for family members to share a single Apple Card account.

Lacewell said that her agency, which regulates banks in New York, has been in contact with representatives from Goldman and could sit down with them as soon as Tuesday.

When asked whether DFS was investigating both Goldman and Apple, Lacewell responded that it was looking into "the practice."

"Goldman is the bank that stands behind the Apple Card," she continued. "We actually license Goldman ... We've asked the company to begin explaining what the algorithm is."
Here's a different example of AI black box problems regarding gender bias (via the link above):
Reuters said:
Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women
... In effect, Amazon’s system taught itself that male candidates were preferable. It penalized resumes that included the word “women’s,” as in “women’s chess club captain.” And it downgraded graduates of two all-women’s colleges, according to people familiar with the matter. They did not specify the names of the schools.

Amazon edited the programs to make them neutral to these particular terms. But that was no guarantee that the machines would not devise other ways of sorting candidates that could prove discriminatory, the people said.
 


Apple Card application decisions may not even rely much on AI. A scoring algorithm could simply take trust/don't trust inputs from a number of outside data providers and generate credit card decisions.

While retailers have shared information about serial refunders and returners among themselves for decades, that and a lot more behavioral data has become available to financial services companies. Now seemingly innocent actions, such as complaining about an Airbnb rental or retuning a purchase to jet.com/Walmart, has the potential to affect the size of a credit line or the terms of a mortgage.

For example, say you buy and return a lot of Ethernet cables, routers, and switches on Amazon because you install networks for a living. Or you subscribe to a monthly "curated clothing" box where you pay for the clothes up front and return the garments you don't want for a refund. Both of these could look suspicious to a behavioral data aggregator and generate a negative personal rating. And just imagine what a heavy user of Coinbase might look like to a credit card issuer!

Here's a recent article for anybody interested in knowing more:
NY Times said:
I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score. Now You Can Get Yours, Too
Little-known companies are amassing your data — like food orders and Airbnb messages — and selling the analysis to clients. Here’s how to get a copy of what they have on you.
#privacy #security
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
And some more notes from The Verge:
Dieter Bohn said:
Apple owns every mistake Goldman Sachs makes with its card
... But before I comment on any of this, I want to point you to the blog post by Jamie Heinemeier Hansson about the whole ordeal. She is the person who was denied the full measure of what her credit limit should have been because of Apple and Goldman Sachs’ black-box algorithm. You should read it in full, even though I’m about to quote a bit below, because it is important, level-headed, and blisteringly accurate.

... Of course, you wouldn’t expect Goldman Sachs to apologize, because that could be used against it in the upcoming lawsuit. You also wouldn’t expect Goldman Sachs to apologize because it’s Goldman Effing Sachs, one of the architects of the housing crisis a decade ago that had to pay a $5 billion settlement and admit to a series of facts about how it misled investors.

You know, the company that Apple partnered with to launch the Apple Card.

Apple is trying to have all the benefits of a consumer and privacy-friendly credit card without any of the hassles that come along with it. Take a look at Apple’s promotional page for Apple Card: right now it’s led by the tagline “Created by Apple, not a bank.” I’m sure it was, in the same way that Apple’s products are “Designed in California” but assembled in China — though at least then Apple oversees the manufacturing and tries to guarantee a basic level of human rights.
 



If this were a problem unique to Apple, one might be worried. But it could well be a reflection of the credit-worthiness of folk as measured by the usual suspects.

The nice thing about "AI" is that you simply don't need to tell it to take specific notice of race, sex, gender, height, etc. All of those are absorbed into the data/outcome pattern-matching. So the results of Apple's analyses arrive at the results you'd expect from ordinary credit-rating reports.

Further, in my experience, you can call up your credit card company and say, "Hey, I need a bigger credit limit - look I had a limit of $nnnnnn on my old XYZ Bank card and it all worked well and I've canceled it in favour of yours, so there's no new credit ballooning about."
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
In other words:
Arwa Mahdawi said:
Apple’s ‘sexist’ credit card isn’t just a PR problem – it’s a nightmare for us all
... Like God, algorithms often work in mysterious ways, making opaque decisions not even the program’s creators can understand. Machine-learning algorithms don’t need to be told to take factors such as gender or race into account to make sexist or racist assumptions based on the biased data fed in. And this has worrying ramifications. Increasingly, every aspect of our lives, from our employability to our trustworthiness and our creditworthiness, is being influenced by these opaque algorithms. This isn’t just a PR problem for Apple and Goldman Sachs, it’s a nightmare for us all.
 


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