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I've read a rumor that the SE will not longer be supported by Apple with the next major iOS upgrade. Any truth to this or did I just fall for some click-bait? :D
 


I've read a rumor that the SE will not longer be supported by Apple with the next major iOS upgrade. Any truth to this or did I just fall for some click-bait? :D
As the owner of an iPhone 6 Plus mentioned in the same rumor, I surely hope it was the latter! Knowing my luck, though...
 


I've read a rumor that the SE will not longer be supported by Apple with the next major iOS upgrade. Any truth to this or did I just fall for some click-bait? :D
Considering that Apple has been selling new SE models this year, it would mean that support is dropped before the warranty expires. That would be odd.
 


I really liked Apple's iWork for a while, until they pulled the file format switch in '09, which left me with a bunch of files I certainly wasn't going to sit there and convert.
...
These days I try to do as much of my writing using Markdown or LaTeX as I can. If I absolutely have to use an office suite, I use the online version of Office or Google Docs - not nearly as full featured, but good enough for my purposes, and I know I can get to it using any web-browser.
The free, open-source, cross platform LibreOffice software is something I install on every machine I use, support, and/or service. It is able to open many legacy file formats including ClarisWorks/AppleWorks, and has a native file format that is open, well documented, and widely supported by other software (I think even recent versions of MS Office can read it). Perhaps it is not as future-proof as LaTeX, but it comes close.
 


I just read that an upgraded MacBook Air and a 13” MacBook Pro without touch bar may finally come out in September - good news for me, since I’d like to replace my 5-year-old MacBook Air, which needs a new battery and is generally getting long in the tooth. The new Macs will probably come with the new OS, Catalina, which I don’t want; I imagine they’ll be outfitted with Intel’s 8th/9th gen processors.

My question: I have bootable clones of my system (with all my stuff, of course, including Mojave). I hope I can simply repopulate a new Mac with my clone. Can anyone tell me whether this will work or not? Thanks in advance.
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
The new Macs will probably come with the new OS, Catalina, which I don’t want; I imagine they’ll be outfitted with Intel’s 8th/9th gen processors. My question: I have bootable clones of my system (with all my stuff, of course, including Mojave). I hope I can simply repopulate a new Mac with my clone. Can anyone tell me whether this will work or not?
No, that really never works, because the older macOS lacks software needed to support the newer hardware that didn’t yet exist when the older macOS was created. Apple never back-ports that support, e.g. a new driver for a new screen, or support for its T2 processor. For example, you’ll never boot a touchbar MacBook Pro from macOS 10.12. This is a huge issue for upcoming Macs, given macOS 10.15 Catalina’s incompatibility with all existing 32-bit software and media.
 


When you're trying to use an older machine to replace a newer one (temporarily, perhaps), you may have problems if the newer machine is running newer apps with different file formats (and/or preferences/settings), and the older Mac/macOS won't run the newer app you were using nor open its newer files.
...(And, of course, these imcompatibility issues apply to Apple's own apps, such as the abandoned/changing Aperture, iPhoto, iTunes, FileMaker, iWorks, etc., as well as lots of third-party software. And this will all suddenly get much worse with macOS 10.15 and all new Macs that require it, with its abandonment of all 32-bit software and media,)
I've had more problems with Apple apps changing formats than with MS Office, Nisus, Firefox, or most of the other third-party apps I use. A few months back I had to transfer Pages files between a High Sierra MacBook Air and an El Cap Mac Mini, and found I had to translate them into a different form. After that, I put Nisus on the MacBook Air, so I didn't have to mess around with Pages at all. My usage isn't typical, and as Ric says, this is going to get a lot worse with macOS 10.15.
 


No, that really never works, because the older macOS lacks software needed to support the newer hardware that didn’t yet exist when the older macOS was created.
What about for 2017 iMacs like mine? I ask because, although my machine (purchased in 2019) shipped with 10.14.3, when the model (and therefore its hardware) was new, it shipped with macOS 10.12.4. Does that mean my bootable clone with macOS 10.12.6 should be just fine, or that it is still impossible (or at least not recommended), because my specific machine shipped with a later version?
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
What about for 2017 iMacs like mine? I ask because, although my machine (purchased in 2019) shipped with 10.14.3, when the model (and therefore its hardware) was new, it shipped with macOS 10.12.4. Does that mean my bootable clone with macOS 10.12.6 should be just fine, or that it is still impossible (or at least not recommended), because my specific machine shipped with a later version?
No, the only thing that matters is what macOS shipped on that exact hardware configuration originally.

If you buy a Mac Pro 6,1 that Apple's still selling today - a ME253LL/A, which debuted in 2013 - then it will still run its original OS X 10.9.1, no matter what Apple ships on it now. There's no Thunderbolt 3 or T2 controller hardware to conflict with the old Mavericks OS.

Similarly, you can buy a MacBook Air that Apple is still selling at $999 and up (MacBook Air 7,2) and happily run macOS 10.12.6 Sierra on it with no problems, even if Apple delivers it with macOS 10.4 Mojave installed. (I've done this myself.)

But this 2019 MacBook Pro requires macOS 10.14.5, nothing earlier, and this 2019 iMac won't boot anything older than macOS 10.14.4, so you won't be running Mavericks or Sierra or even High Sierra on those.

And if, as expected, the 2019 Mac Pro and the rumored 16-inch MacBook Pro require macOS 10.15, they will never, ever boot any earlier macOS, nor ever run any 32-bit software (other than possibly inside a virtual machine).

Your 2017 iMac looks like a sweet spot on the timeline, as it should be able to boot macOS 10.12, 10.13, 10.14 and 10.15, yet it also has all the power of Thunderbolt 3. Nice!
 


I already own two 2011 17" MacBook Pros that I'm very happy with. I just purchased two 15" 2012 MacBook Pros for my sons last week at an eBay auction, one for $300 and the other for $335 (there was a listing error in the $335 posting, as the HD was actually 500GB and not 750GB, but the seller immediately emailed me and knocked $35 off the purchase price).
From my initial pre-purchase research, I got some bad feelings about some of the eBay sellers and good feelings about others. For me, it all came down to support, perceived honesty, and their ability to communicate back to the buyer or potential buyer, me, in a reasonable amount of time....
We should receive them in a few days. I will report back here as to what condition they arrive in. We have pre-purchased Samsung 860 EVO 1TB SSDs and have already Carbon Copy Cloned, so that they are ready to pop in when the laptops show up. Both MacBook Pros come with 8 GB of RAM, so we'll start there and see if we need to upgrade the RAM to 16 GB. Hopefully, the battery cycles are reasonable.
Don't forget that Collin (dosdude1.com) has that really amazing Mojave Patcher that will permit those old 2011 MacBook Pros to run Mojave quite nicely, once you have installed adequate RAM and an SSD.
 


Your 2017 iMac looks like a sweet spot on the timeline, as it should be able to boot macOS 10.12, 10.13, 10.14 and 10.15, yet it also has all the power of Thunderbolt 3. Nice!
I definitely agree with that! This reminds me of when I discovered that my Classic II could run System 6.0.8 (specifically, 6.0.8L) and also dual-boot System 7.1 with the help of System Picker!
 


Don't forget that Collin (dosdude1.com) has that really amazing Mojave Patcher that will permit those old 2011 MacBook Pros to run Mojave quite nicely, once you have installed adequate RAM and an SSD.
Barry, I looked at it when he first released it. These 2011 17" models are not Metal-compatible, so I would only be able to use the Integrated video and not the higher-end discrete video. Since I need the discrete card for FCP X, running an external monitor, etc., this won't work for me, and I will likely stay on Sierra with these 2011 MacBook Pros. The 2012's, on the other hand, are Metal-compatible, and it appears that they will work fine all the way up to 10.15 Catalina.
 


A friend brought me his 2009 MacBook 6,1 (white polycarbonate) to see if it could be upgraded. I thought for sure it would be stuck at Snow Leopard. I am surprised to find it can go to High Sierra.

It took forever to upgrade, because, although Apple says you can jump from Mountain Lion to High Sierra, I couldn’t make that happen with this machine. So it was Snow Leopard >> Mountain Lion >> Sierra >> High Sierra.

There was Franz Kafka hilarity at one point after I installed Sierra, where Apple has a link on an official webpage to ‘upgrade’ to High Sierra, but the link takes you to the App Store, which insists you must have the latest macOS to sign into the App Store to get the upgrade. Huh? I have gotten wise with age and only clicked on the link and tried to sign in four times.

I have USB thumb drives for each OS install going back to Snow Leopard, so that crisis averted.

I am going to drop an SSD in there to make it snappy. Funny, Snow Leopard runs fast on that machine.
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
Your 2017 iMac looks like a sweet spot on the timeline, as it should be able to boot macOS 10.12, 10.13, 10.14 and 10.15, yet it also has all the power of Thunderbolt 3. Nice!
In fact, I think a 2017 iMac 5K Retina like the following is a slam dunk at $2,549 with 1TB SSD, two Thunderbolt 3 ports, Radeon Pro 580/8GB, P3 wide-gamut color, 8GB user-upgradable RAM (up to 64GB at 2400MHz), SDXC Card slot, four USB 3 ports, 4.2GHz quad-core i7, and macOS 10.12 compatibility....


I hope to test one soon, with the idea of creating a powerful desktop system and mirroring that to a 2015 MacBook Pro for travel (and backup), both running macOS 10.12 (or whatever else we want to run after that).
 


I think a 2017 iMac 5K Retina like the following is a slam dunk at $2,549 with 1TB SSD, two Thunderbolt 3 ports, Radeon Pro 580/8GB, P3 wide-gamut color, 8GB user-upgradable RAM (up to 64GB at 2400MHz), SDXC Card slot, four USB 3 ports, 4.2GHz quad-core i7, and macOS 10.12 compatibility....
Would this machine be capable of running macOS 10.15, with its 64-bit and "Metal" requirements? Or will it be "stuck" at Mojave? (You can see how confused some of us non-tech types are by the new macOS 10.15 threshold.) If it is capable, then you're right... this could be a "magic" sweet spot for iMac upgrade.
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
Would this machine be capable of running macOS 10.15, with its 64-bit and "Metal" requirements?
It must to be capable of handling Catalina (for those who want to run it), given its Radeon Pro 580 with 8 GB of VRAM and everything else (and should outperform almost any MacBook Pro, perhaps excepting the most expensive new Core i9 models). Meanwhile, prompted by Thom Hogan's comments, I've been looking at wide-gamut monitors, and as he suggested, any standalone displays with that kind of capability are very pricy (not to mention lacking 5K resolution, which is extremely rare).
 


It has to be capable of handling Catalina (for those who want to run it...), given its Radeon Pro 580 with 8 GB of VRAM and everything else.
Thanks, Ric! I'm not "committed" to running Catalina, but I just don't want to invest $2-3 grand while buying into a system "locked-out" of future security updates and (likely) abandoned file systems over the coming decade. For me, it's not an income-producing decision. But this looks like an excellent update from my 2011 iMac 27", which is "stuck" at High Sierra. I highly value your careful and helpful judgement!
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
But this looks like an excellent update from my 2011 iMac 27", which is "stuck" at High Sierra.
There's a distinct divide between 2011 and 2012 Macs, it seems. MacBook Pros are similar - my 2011 model can't run macOS 10.14 Mojave (and it suffers with the handcuffs of having only USB 2, not USB 3), while an identical-looking 2012 MacBook Pro 13" handles Mojave fine (and offers the massively faster USB 3 ports). I'm not sure if the 2012 MacBook Pro 13" will work with Catalina, though.
 


There's a distinct divide between 2011 and 2012 Macs, it seems. MacBook Pros are similar - my 2011 model can't run macOS 10.14 Mojave (and it suffers with the handcuffs of having only USB 2, not USB 3), while an identical-looking 2012 MacBook Pro 13" handles Mojave fine (and offers the massively faster USB 3 ports). I'm not sure if the 2012 MacBook Pro 13" will work with Catalina, though.
Catalina works fine on the 13" 2012 MacBook Pros, including the non-Retina workhorses. I currently have it running on an 13" i7-based non-Retina 2012 MacBook Pro, and performance is very reasonable for beta software, even with a spinning disk.

The main issue with the pre-2012 MacBook Pros (and most other Macs unsupported in Mojave) is that their graphics systems are not compatible with the Metal API.

FWIW, many older, unsupported Macs, even some that go back to 2008, can work quite well with Mojave (and even Catalina) by running them with SIP disabled and treating them essentially as Hackintoshes. As is common with Hackintoshes, there can be some minor issues, but many people find the issues to be less important than the ability to keep their systems running a current OS. The main exception are 11,x and 12,x iMacs with AMD Radeon HD 5xxx and 6xxx series GPUs. Mojave will install and run on those machines but will be essentially unusable, because Mojave removed all hardware acceleration support for those particular GPUs.
 



I just read that an upgraded MacBook Air and a 13” MacBook Pro without touch bar may finally come out in September ...
I tried to find out more about this, as I would prefer function keys to a touch bar, and it would also mean my current MacBook Pro can be kept as one more High Sierra Mac that can work with my Flextight scanner (whose 32-bit proprietary software will no longer be supported after 10.14). Where did you spot this rumour?
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
Where did you spot this rumour?
FYI:
Forbes said:
Apple Plans To Ship 16-Inch MacBook Pro This Year, Says IHS Markit -- Offers More Details
... Analyst Ming-Chi Kuo said earlier this year that Apple plans a 16-inch MacBook Pro. Apple is also expected to update the 13.3-inch MacBook Pro and Retina MacBook Air with the new MacOS Catalina and new processors in September, according to Lin. Apple did a processor refresh of the 13- and 15-inch MacBook Pro in May.
 





Ric Ford

MacInTouch
In fact, I think a 2017 iMac 5K Retina like the following is a slam dunk at $2,549 with 1TB SSD, two Thunderbolt 3 ports, Radeon Pro 580/8GB, P3 wide-gamut color, 8GB user-upgradable RAM (up to 64GB at 2400MHz), SDXC Card slot, four USB 3 ports, 4.2GHz quad-core i7, and macOS 10.12 compatibility....
  • It boots and runs macOS 10.12.6
  • It comes with macOS 10.14.3 installed.
  • It boots from FileVault-encrypted external drives (both Thunderbolt 3 and USB 3) with no T2/Secure Boot roadblocks.
  • It boots, installs, and runs Linux Mint 19.1 Cinnamon with WiFi and internal SSD support from a "Live USB" (using Compatibility mode with third-party mouse and keyboard connected via USB cables to get started). This defaults to 4K (2160p) resolution, making objects on screen extremely tiny, but you can change that (e.g. to 1440p) in Preferences > Display.

Here's a Geekbench CPU test - this 2017 iMac 5K quad-core lags a 2018 Mac Mini 6-core*

Graphics are an entirely different story, however:

Unless you add an eGPU, that is:

iMac 5K CPU performance is virtually tied with a top-end 2018 MacBook Pro 13" (ignoring graphics):

I ran storage benchmarks on the internal iMac 1TB SSD, booting from macOS Mojave:

Write (MB/s)Read (MB/s)
Blackmagic Disk Speed Test (5GB)19662460
AJA System Test Lite (4GB)21382875


Let's try it after booting macOS Sierra (10.12.6)**:
Write (MB/s)Read (MB/s)
Blackmagic Disk Speed Test (5GB)20032438
AJA System Test Lite (4GB)22472697



*Geekbench versions were slightly different here, 4.3.0 vs. 4.3.1.

**These results were not very consistent from run to run. (I don't know why not - perhaps cache effects?)

#benchmarks #performance #egpu #GeekBench #MacMini
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
  • It boots and runs macOS 10.12.6
  • It comes with macOS 10.14.3 installed.
Interestingly, even after booting with Command-Shift-Option-R, the Internet Recovery installer insists on installing Mojave, which came on this refurb computer but was not the original macOS for this 2017 iMac — what originally shipped with this model was macOS 10.12.4 (16F2073).

What I'm wrestling with is the fact that the iMac would not boot from a Recovery partition I created using Carbon Copy Cloner while booted from macOS 10.12.6. (It does boot from a macOS 10.14.5 recovery partition.)
 


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