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Here's Apple's trade-in offer on for a 2018 MacBook Pro 13" (in perfect condition) with 2.7GHz quad-core i7, 1TB SSD and 16GB RAM: $1090...
I have done better over the last few years selling to itsworthmore.com

I don't know what that machine would get, but they always offer me more than Apple does.
 



Here's Apple's trade-in offer on for a 2018 MacBook Pro 13" (in perfect condition) with 2.7GHz quad-core i7, 1TB SSD and 16GB RAM: $1090...
... MacofAllTrades will give you more than that for a machine with 16 Gbytes and 1 Tbyte, assuming it's in good physical condition. Their estimate for the base model (8 GByte, 256 Gbyte storage) with that CPU is $1165. (No connection with macofalltrades, except as a reasonably happy, one-time customer. Specifically, I was happy with everything about the transaction except the box they shipped me (which appeared to be a veteran of the Spanish-American War – despite my concern that a box in tatters was liable to result in damage to the system during shipping, I received the price that had been estimated online before I sent it in... with lots of additional strapping tape on the box to keep it from disintegrating).
 


Now we need a 4K/5K/6K display that will charge it without the external power adaptor. (Sorry, but $999 for a stand and $5000 for the Pro Display XDR that has a 96W Thunderbolt 3 port... not doing it.)
 


First glance, this looks very good. Big improvement.
Now... I know, I know... this is asking a lot... but I'm dying to know if there will be a 13" (14"?) version of this machine. To me, that slightly-smaller frame is a sweet spot.
 


Nearly reached for my credit card... a mid-2012 MacBook Pro being my main workhorse (with the SSD upgraded). Then rationality hit - best to let the bugs in the OS get worked out!

On an amusing sidenote, looked at Apple's promotional material on its website using Safari and failed miserably. The images kept crashing out and forcing a reload. So I cranked up Firefox, and everything went well. And went faster....
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
On an amusing sidenote, looked at Apple's promotional material on its website using Safari and failed miserably. So I cranked up Firefox, and everything went well.
That seems like an anomaly – can't reproduce it here (with macOS Sierra and Safari 12, at least). I wonder if your Safari cache got messed up somehow.
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
Now we need a 4K/5K/6K display that will charge it without the external power adaptor. (Sorry, but $999 for a stand and $5000 for the Pro Display XDR that has a 96W Thunderbolt 3 port... not doing it.)
Like this one?
Dell said:
Dell Brings the Ultimate Screen Performance to AdobeMax - Direct2Dell
This performance-packed monitor offers Thunderbolt 3 with speed up to 40Gbps – the fastest and most versatile connectivity with two Thunderbolt 3 ports, and can charge up to 90W to a connected notebook...

The Dell UltraSharp 27 4K PremierColor Monitor will be available Jan. 15, 2020 worldwide starting at $1,999.99 USD.
 


... Jason Snell at least has a quick check on the new laptop:
Jason's first-blush review is excellent and very helpful. It implies in a couple of places, without details, that he expects Apple to issue additional laptop designs in 2020.

It doesn't (yet) answer one important question: Which - if any - of the new laptop's components are user-upgradable (memory, SSD, graphics, etc.). That's another lesson, like the keyboard, Apple needs to learn.
 



Here's Apple's trade-in offer on for a 2018 MacBook Pro 13" (in perfect condition) with 2.7GHz quad-core i7, 1TB SSD and 16GB RAM: $1090...
Here's Apple's trade-in quote for a 2013 MacBook Pro 13" (in excellent condition) with 2.6GHz Intel Core i5, 512GB SSD and 16GB RAM: $310 – not enough to upgrade the new [basic model] to the premium model.
 


I will eventually move up to Catalina, but not yet - and I have been a first-day adaptor of every Apple OS since the first version of OSX, which was buggier than hell.
That first OS X... I got the OS X version of Canvas Draw. Oh, my - never in all my life have I ever seen software run so slowly....
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
I will eventually move up to Catalina, but not yet - and I have been a first-day adaptor of every Apple OS since the first version of OSX, which was buggier than hell.
Mac OS X 10.0 was so absurdly bad, I never ran it at all. (I wonder if the first ARM-based version of macOS will be like that? "Catalyst" hasn't done too well....)

#applequality
 


That seems like an anomaly – can't reproduce it here (with macOS Sierra and Safari 12, at least). I wonder if your Safari cache got messed up somehow.
You may be right - tried a variety of OS's and Safari vintages on other machines and they were all fine. I'm one behind my copy of Safari with security updates (High Sierra). I retract my rude comment.... :-)
 


DFG

Definitely some progress with this new version of the MacBook Pro. A few of the design blunders of the last few iterations are fixed (keyboard, cooling system, escape key, large battery), but others remain (the horrendously large trackpad, the awful touchbar, the lack of ports, no user upgradable storage, no user replaceable battery). Improved screen, speakers, camera, microphone, are nice touches, but no big deal.

It's time for the usual comparison with a close competitor, the also recently-released latest incarnation of the Dell XPS 15, the 7590. I tried to compare similar configurations:

2019 MacBook Pro 16"2019 Dell XPS 15 7590
CPUi9-9880H?/8cores/4.8 GHzi9-9980HK/8cores/5 GHz
RAM (GB)3232
Screen size16" (IPS)15.6" (OLED)
Screen res.3072x19203840x2160
Screen brightness500 nits400 nits
GPU
AMD Radeon Pro 5500M (4 GB)
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 (4 GB)
SSD1 TB (proprietary)1 TB (M.2 PCI2 NVMe)
Battery (Wh)10097
Price$3,199$2,449

The 5 GHz processor is another $200 on the MacBook Pro... and the upgrade from 16 GB RAM to 32 GB RAM is a whopping $400. The MacBook Pro is the better looking laptop over the aging Dell design, but not $750 better.

I think Apple should have included 32 GB RAM in the standard configuration.

Then, there's the question of Catalina. Suddenly the XPS running Linux is a contender.
 


It's pretty sad when the key features of a new machine - a properly working keyboard and not throttling due to heat - are things that should have always worked. I suppose we should be pleased.

As others have said, the biggest drawback is requiring Catalina. A quick check shows several dozen apps on my machine that are still 32-bit. I'm sure some could be upgraded, but I hate having to update things that are working perfectly well.
 



I'm not going to personally "colour" you impressed until after you've bought one, used it for a number of weeks, and decided you still like it... (Maybe I'm just projecting my own feelings on you! :-)
Indeed, but I'm not planning on buying any new Apple computers for a long time. Not going anywhere near Catalina, either, on my work computers (will play with it on a test Mac). Might buy the new iPhone SE, if and when it comes out next year - purely because my current phone will stop getting security updates at the end of next year. Apple does not get much money from my family/business any more.
 


Mac OS X 10.0 was so absurdly bad, I never ran it at all. (I wonder if the first ARM-based version of macOS will be like that? "Catalyst" hasn't done too well....)
I remember meeting the mail or UPS person in my hallway and clutching the box, then running into a neighbor who also got his delivered. We were both nervous. After I installed it, I kept thinking "how could I have done this to myself?"

It obviously got better, but it took a long time. I also obviously did not learn, as that started my race to install Mac OS updates immediately. I did stop beta testing the official betas, though. Catalina is just something I'm not going to deal with for the moment. I'm worried about the music files, the extinction of a few strange old audio apps I use, and a few other things.

I'm at the point where I don't enjoy troubleshooting a problem all night the way I used to. I also don't trust Apple as much in terms of any help they could offer if things go south. And, when I do finally explore it, I'll have - as always - multiple backups and do the dirty deed on a backup machine initially to test things out. Maybe I'm being overly cautious here? I don't know, just trusting my gut, reading a lot of internet forums.

Thanks, Ric, as always, and I'll try to donate in the new year - and waiting. Mojave is looking pretty good right now. No problem for me with APFS, but I still read about people avoiding it, so maybe I'm being unreasonable with Catalina. We shall see.
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
Here are details about graphics hardware for 16-inch MacBook Pros vs. 15-inch MacBook Pros:
Malcolm Owen said:
AMD details the 16-inch MacBook Pro's Radeon Pro 5000M-series GPUs

Radeon Pro 5500MRadeon Pro 5300MRadeon Pro Vega 20Radeon Pro Vega 16Radeon Pro 560XRadeon Pro 555X
MacBook Pro Model16-inch Late 201916-inch Late 201915-inch Mid 201915-inch Mid 201915-inch Mid 201915-inch Mid 2019
VRAM4GB or 8GB GDDR64GB GDDR64GB HBM24GB HBM24GB GDDR54GB GDDR5
Compute Units242020161612
Stream Processors ("Shaders")1,5361,280128010241024768
Max Performance (FP32 in TFlops)4.03.23.22.42.01.4
Peak Engine Clock1,300MHz1,250MHz1,283MHz1,190MHz1,004MHz907MHz
GPU Process Size7nm7nm14nm14nm14nm14nm
 



Ric Ford

MacInTouch
The MacBook Pro is the better looking laptop over the aging Dell design, but not $750 better.
Especially as it lacks the OLED 4K screen of the Dell XPS, which is presumably a costly component with superior display characteristics.
 


Definitely some progress with this new version of the MacBook Pro. A few of the design blunders of the last few iterations are fixed (keyboard, cooling system, escape key, large battery), but others remain (the horrendously large trackpad, the awful touchbar, the lack of ports, no user upgradable storage, no user replaceable battery). Improved screen, speakers, camera, microphone, are nice touches, but no big deal.
It's time for the usual comparison with a close competitor, the also recently-released latest incarnation of the Dell XPS 15, the 7590. I tried to compare similar configurations:

2019 MacBook Pro 16"2019 Dell XPS 15 7590
CPUi9-9880H?/8cores/4.8 GHzi9-9980HK/8cores/5 GHz
RAM (GB)3232
Screen size16" (IPS)15.6" (OLED)
Screen res.3072x19203840x2160
Screen brightness500 nits400 nits
GPU
AMD Radeon Pro 5500M (4 GB)
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 (4 GB)
SSD1 TB (proprietary)1 TB (M.2 PCI2 NVMe)
Battery (Wh)10097
Price$3,199$2,449

The 5 GHz processor is another $200 on the MacBook Pro... and the upgrade from 16 GB RAM to 32 GB RAM is a whopping $400. The MacBook Pro is the better looking laptop over the aging Dell design, but not $750 better.
I think Apple should have included 32 GB RAM in the standard configuration.
Then, there's the question of Catalina. Suddenly the XPS running Linux is a contender.
For me the MacBook Pro is still missing MagSafe and a SD card slot. The XPS looks like a great alternative but caution on thermal throttling with the Core i9?
Matthew Moniz said:
Dell XPS 15 (2019) - Buyer Beware!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arw1ckItBvs
 





Ric Ford

MacInTouch
The XPS looks like a great alternative but caution on thermal throttling with the i9?
Actually, it doesn't sound so bad in this recent review, where they tested with Core i9 CPU, Nvidia 1650 GPU and 4K OLED display.
Gizmodo said:
Dell XPS 15 Review: A Really Good Laptop for Almost Everything
... And even with the XPS 15's more restricted chassis, it performed quite well on benchmarks such as Handbrake, where the XPS 15 took 8 minutes and 1 second to render a 6GB 4K video, which is only slightly longer what we got from the Triton 900 (7:40), despite the Triton having a much beefier GPU. Meanwhile, when using Blender to test CPU performance, things were also quite close with our Core i9-9980 XPS 15 finishing a demo render in just 4 minutes and 15 seconds, compared to 4:05 for the Triton 900, which also sported an Intel i9 CPU. So yes, there is a small penalty in pure performance due to the XPS 15's thermals, but considering its more portable dimensions, the difference is pretty negligible unless you are maxing out the system on a regular basis.
...
  • With a starting price of just $1,100 and a huge range of components including up to an Intel Core i9 CPU and Nvidia GTX 1650 GPU, the XPS 15 has pretty much everyone covered.
  • It would be nice if Dell included one more USB port, as the XPS 15 only has two USB-A and one USB-C (with Thunderbolt 3) ports.
  • There is some slight thermal limiting at high-performance levels, but it’s about the same as other 15-inch thin-and-light laptops like the MacBook Pro 15.
  • The XPS 15 doesn’t support Windows Hello face login, but it does have a fingerprint reader built-into its power button.
  • Screen options include a full HD non-touch display, a 4K UHD IPS display with touch, or a 4K UHD non-touch OLED display like the one reviewed here.
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
Nope. I tried again yesterday with Mint 19.1 and the 2018 MacBook Pro, which kernel-panic'd.
Well, Linux Mint 19.2 is out, let's try that...
  1. Download http://mirrors.seas.harvard.edu/linuxmint/stable/19.2/linuxmint-19.2-cinnamon-64bit.iso
  2. Burn it to flash with balenaEtcher
  3. Find a USB-C adapter
  4. Insert in 2018 MacBook Pro with all security startup options disabled:
    Secure Boot: No Security.
    External Boot
    : Allow booting from external media.
  5. Play the open-lid/startup/Option boot game
  6. Select the second "EFI" volume
  7. Select the first Linux menu item (in microscopic type, because Retina mode isn't enabled)
  8. kernel panic
  9. Repeat but select second Linux menu item ("compatibility mode")
  10. kernel panic
  11. Repeat but select third Linux menu item
  12. kernel panic
  13. Repeat but select first EFI volume
  14. macOS recovery mode starts... forget it, I've done this many times before and it's just a misleading, dead-end waste of time
So... nope.

Mint 19.2 does boot beautifully on a 2017 MacBook Air, though.
 


The fact their TPM module doesn't let you disable it so you can run a non-Apple OS is really annoying. Even the Microsoft Surface Pros that I manage have an easy-to-use way to disable that, so you can boot from Linux. (I used CloneZilla to restore them to a master image after students return them from the field.)
 



DFG

Especially as it lacks the OLED 4K screen of the Dell XPS, which is presumably a costly component with superior display characteristics.
But interestingly enough, the OLED screen is not the 'best' configuration. Dell offers an LED IPS screen with 500 nits brightness and anti-reflective glass with touch for an additional $50.

And, by the way, I see that I configured the Dell on the small business site with Windows 10 Pro. If you are happy with the Home edition, you can shave another $50 from the price.
 


DFG

Here are details about graphics hardware for 16-inch MacBook Pros vs. 15-inch MacBook Pros...
Yes, the AMD GPU in the new MacBook Pro is faster than the 206-days-old Nvidia GPU in the Dell 7590. However, it is still considerably slower than a newer Nvidia RTX 2080 GPU. I wish Apple would switch back to Nvidia and give us a true high-performance GPU for the $$$ that they want. Gigabyte, MSI, Lenovo, Acer, Razr, etc. do offer such GPUs.
 



Ric Ford

MacInTouch
Yes, the AMD GPU in the new MacBook Pro is faster than the 206-days-old Nvidia GPU in the Dell 7590. However, it is still considerably slower than a newer Nvidia RTX 2080 GPU. I wish Apple would switch back to Nvidia and give us a true high-performance GPU for the $$$ that they want.
With the Geforce RTX 2080 at 80-150+ Watts, that might be asking a lot of the slim MacBook Pro cooling system, no? (The Radeon RX5500M apparently has a TDP of 85W with the RX5300M at 65W.)
The Verge said:
AMD’s Radeon RX 5500 is its new entry-level competitor to Nvidia’s GTX 1650
AMD has announced its second series of GPUs based on its new 7nm RDNA architecture: the Radeon RX 5500 series. While the company says the RX 5700 and RX 5700 XT were aimed at running games at 1440p resolution and high frame rates to compete with Nvidia’s midrange RTX Super cards, its latest GPUs have more modest specs and aim to offer decent performance at a resolution of 1080p. ... The RX 5500 is for desktop machines, while the RX 5500M is for laptops....

SpecsRadeon RX 5500MRadeon RX 5500Radeon RX 5700Radeon RX 5700 XT
Game clockUp to 1448MHzUp to 1717MHz1625MHz1755MHz
Boost clock (up to)1645MHz1845MHz1725MHz1905MHz
SP compute (up to)4.6 TFLOPS5.2 TFLOPS7.9 TFLOPS9.7 TFLOPs
Memory4GB GDDR6Up to 8GB GDDR68GB GDDR68GB GDDR6
Compute Units22223640
TDP85W150W185W225W
Memory Interface128-bit128-bit256-bit256-bit
Stream Processors1408140823042560
PriceTBATBA$349$399

The RX 5500 is meant as an entry-level counterpart to the existing RX 5570.
But isn't the show-stopper Apple's unwillingness to support Nvidia software/drivers on the Mac?
 






Here's Apple's trade-in offer on for a 2018 MacBook Pro 13" (in perfect condition) with 2.7GHz quad-core i7, 1TB SSD and 16GB RAM: $1090... which is about $1609 for a single year of light use on Apple's plan... (I wish I could make profits like that). (I wonder what else I could buy outright with $1609, if I hadn't wasted that cash on Apple taxes for macOS?)
Ok, but wait: you bought a high end spec machine for light use? That doesn’t make sense, nor does trading in a pretty new machine (just like driving a car off the lot cuts it’s value by a third). If you are looking to retain flexibility and upgrade regularly then leasing is a better option. A three year straight line depreciation would have only valued that at $1800 after a year, and getting $1090 from Apple seems entirely inline with that kind of trade in. Plus, what was the value of the productivity over that year over either no machine or whatever it replaced? And perfect condition doesn’t include a perfect battery, which I’ve usually seen replaced in their refurb models.
 


Ric Ford

MacInTouch
Ok, but wait: you bought a high end spec machine for light use? That doesn’t make sense,...
No, it doesn't. I bought a "high end spec machine" because I wanted its power, but what I didn't realize was:
  • how unproductive and annoying macOS 10.14+ would be*
  • how many issues the T2 chip would create
  • that the keyboard would still be defective three years after Apple first switched to a defective design
  • how unpleasant the keyboard might be to use (even if it's working)
  • how irritating the oversized trackpad might be
  • how badly it would depreciate
  • that it couldn't run Linux
(just like driving a car off the lot cuts it’s value by a third)
That reality distortion field doesn't match the facts (and you'd better read our posting principles regarding facts...).
If you are looking to retain flexibility and upgrade regularly...
What I'm looking for is computational power without the baggage of unproductive software and hardware changes bundled into a bad, overpriced package.
Plus, what was the value of the productivity over that year over either no machine or whatever it replaced?
The value of productivity with this expensive MacBook Pro has been a very large negative ROI with literally hundreds of hours wasted. I'm using a 2015 MacBook Pro to actually get work done efficiently, even though its hardware is slower.
And perfect condition doesn’t include a perfect battery, which I’ve usually seen replaced in their refurb models.
Cycle count: 20
Condition: Normal



*Trying to migrate from a carefully optimized and hardened macOS Sierra system.
 


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